- This topic has 15 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 09/29/2018 at 2:47 pm by
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Hi Everyone, Anca here.
I’m so glad I get to join in online and fellowship with everyone. I’m not there in the flesh but I’m with you all in the spirit! Jane, you have done a wonderful job with the slides, they are so beautifully written! I’m learning many new things 🙂
I’m going to share some of my thoughts as I’m reading through the slides.
Slide 6 & 7 immediately jumped out to me. Jane does a wonderful job pulling out all of the spiritual elements of Adam and Eve’s characteristics post-fall. I wanted to highlight some of the material and economic realities of the fall and how they play into the character traits of man and woman post-fall. What stood out to me was how the descriptive consequences of the fall seem to contain the seeds of Patriarchy within them.
Some examples are:
The physical shelter that man and woman had in the garden was now gone as they were thrown out. Pre-fall all food was provided for them in the garden by God but post-fall man would now have to work the ground by the sweat of his brow and the earth would no longer yield it’s fruit easily since it was now cursed. The mention of woman’s conception being multiplied and that it would be hard to raise children. All of these things lay the ground for patriarchy to spring forth!
If we think about it, a man usually has more muscle and body strength than a woman. Prior to the fall, God was the provider of food for both man and woman, the garden was safe shelter for the man and the woman, and the only thing they had to guard against was their own temptation. After the fall, the hard ground would have to be broken and food would have to be cultivated, due to physical advantage the man was best suited for this task. The animals were now also violent and dangerous. The woman would have small children dependent on her for breastmilk and pregnancy would be difficult and dangerous. These very real realities would make the woman dependent on the man for the provision of food, shelter, and protection from the wild animals and elements. This naturally gave the man an edge and advantage over the woman, and God was no longer the woman’s sole provider and protector.
Adam had already shown his treacherous sinful nature when he blamed his wife and God for his own actions. So the worse thing that could have happened to the woman was for her to now be at the mercy of the man, depending on him for food, protection, and shelter while she is vulnerable due to having small children dependent on her in this sinful world where there was now scarcity, sickness, danger, and death.
By the next generation, as seen in Cain, the man had also become murderous and greedy, killing each other in a fight for dominance, status, and resources, the beginning markers of war. This also put the woman at the mercy of the man as violence was now unleashed on the earth and she depended on her husband to protect her from other men. We immediately also see male lust which produced polygamy thus breaking the original command where the man was to leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife, not the other way around. These are all markers of patriarchy and it’s beginnings! No wonder God gave the woman a warning that if she turn to her husband he would rule over her. Sadly, Eve had now become a “fearful man dependent woman” and Adam ruled over her.
I see it like Adam had the economic advantage because he was the primary one to break hard ground and raise crop for food. This automatically gives the man an advantage over the woman. Man being sinful now used his advantage as the provider and protector of the woman to rule over. In patriarchy, women do indeed sell out on all of their standards just to have a man provide for them. They put up with adultery, beatings, being ruled and bossed around, and accept they accept servitude. They idolize the man under that system.
Later in history, we see that the man also further enforced that system and set it up to his greedy advantage by denying woman equal share in the fruit of her labor and womb. Under patriarchy, man exploits woman for services and resources. A woman used to make almost all clothing for the man, she also made products at home for the survival of the family like medicines. She later toiled the ground with the man and was the primary one to process food and store it, she carried and gave human life. Yet, man denied her the legal and social right to the income that her labor and resources produced and instead forced her to depend on him and slave away in servitude to the man.
From the earliest clans of human history, historically, most families produced products in the home from raw goods and traded them among each other and sold them in the marketplace. A woman was usually the one making these products and even selling them in the market, yet legally she could not keep any of the money and was not entitled the authority to make a binding transaction. A woman also did not have legal authority over her own children, only the husband did. The man also did not leave his father and mother to unite and join with his wife, instead, the woman was forced to leave and join with his family and all exploitation and polygamy followed afterward.
So these are some of my thoughts about the real-life consequences of the post-fall curses and their economic ties.
Slide 19
I really like what you said in slide 19, ” Common understanding is that God gave woman to man to cook, sew, clean, etc for him, but these things were not needed before the fall!” This is a good eye-opener for me. I already knew that ‘ezer’ helper did not mean subservient, but I never stopped to think before that cooking, cleaning, and sewing were not needed before the fall. This is a good response to give complementarian men when they try to say a woman was created to be man’s assistant. It should make them think, that is of course if they are capable of rational thought, LOL.
Considering that domestic services were not needed in the garden, it truly is for companionship, pro-creation, co-partnership, and shared dominion that woman was created.
Slide 20
You pose a question about Adam’s silence and if he possibly waited for Eve to act first and see what happened as a way to clear himself of the blame. I am not sure if this is accurate or not, but Hosea 6:7 says the word ‘Adam’ in Hebrew and says he dealt ‘treacherously’ with God.
(כְּאָדָ֖ם kə-’ā-ḏām)
“But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.” (NASB)
Malachi 2:15 Uses the same word ‘treacherous’ as Hosea 6:7 when it refers to a man and the Genesis narrative, only this time in regards to how a man treats his wife.
“And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.” (KJV)
According to Strong’s Concordance ‘treacherous’ is a primitive root; to cover (with a garment); figuratively, to act covertly; by implication, to pillage — deal deceitfully
The above might or might not be connected to Adam, but it’s definitely possible according to Hosea 6:7.
Slide 29 & 31
Wow, I have never heard that before Jane! That Eve may have been the one to teach Abel how to give sacrifices to God. That is a really cool insight! She would have been a possible witness to the first animal sacrifice when God clothed their nakedness. Other women in the Old Testament also worked with sheep and animals, I think that was common for women. Rebeka did at least.
Slide 34,
God says to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?” Cain lies and says, “I don’t know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”
Yep, Cain lied and made excuses just like his father Adam. The ties between Adam first avoiding God and then blaming Eve have strong correlations with how Cain answered and handled God.
Slide 35 & 36
That’s a very good observation about Eve taking some time apart from Adam after Cain murdered Abel. It makes sense. Also, that she would have confronted Adam about all of the pent-up hurt and offenses against her.
Jane, this is a bit off topic, but there is an extra-Biblical book that Jews read that fills in some gaps in the time before the flood. What the book says is that ‘Tubal-Cain’ the supposed grandson of Cain, murdered a child by accident out of rage, and his two wives refused to live and sleep with him afterward. They accused him of being wicked just like his grandfather and considered it a sin to have any further relations with him. The man repented afterward and his wives took him back after that. I just brought it up because if that story has any historical truth or at least the way Jews understood it at the time, someone would have had to teach the women those standards at some point, and it might have been passed down from Eve.
Slides 39 through 42
Those are very powerful insights and prophetic perspectives! I never heard that before. It makes so much sense! Another thing to back your revelations on the events that followed for Seth to be born is the fact that Jews themselves not only take the Genesis narrative to be historical but also prophetic and symbolic in nature. They understand and read Adam and Eve with the same type of thinking you do, and they read behind the scenes for the hidden things to be brought to light.
Thank you Anca for sharing your insight. My family was very patriarchal — and my sister and I were convinced that it was for our good. But the Lord has been faithful to reveal His best plans. Jane’s PowerPoint shows a clear view for us. We wish you were here with us in person. It’s good to “meet” you online.
Dear Anca,
A lifetime friend (Karen) that is here at the retreat, came in a little late when we were reading your posts (aloud). When we finished, she made a comment that showed she thought what was being read was written by me… She was surprised to find out that it was you! Then another woman (EvFranklin1976) said she was going to post, “Dear Jane (Anca -wink wink-)” … and everyone started laughing … In other words, they were teasing me that I had made up another user named Anca and was posting as her ….. We all had a good laugh. We are all thanking God for you!
We’re taking a lunch break and will be back this afternoon. Jane
Karen Johnson,
“Thank you Anca for sharing your insight. My family was very patriarchal — and my sister and I were convinced that it was for our good. But the Lord has been faithful to reveal His best plans. Jane’s PowerPoint shows a clear view for us. We wish you were here with us in person. It’s good to “meet” you online.”
It’s good to meet you too, all of you!
I’m really glad the Lord has and is setting you free from patriarchy. Jane’s slides and writings have the anointing of the Lord on them.
Jesus died to set us free! Christians often say that phrase but most don’t believe that free means free. Instead, it becomes just a religious phrase that they use. I’m realizing more and more that it takes a free spirit and heart in the Lord for God to be able to work through us with maximum potential.
Liberty in the Lord is so important because it produces joy, and life, and love. It is from that wellspring of joy, love, and life that we can give to others in abundance. Patriarchy is like a damn because it holds back the rivers of living waters that are supposed to flow from our belly.
Evfranklin1976,
“Appreciated your insights, very thoughtful..”
Thank you! 🙂
Jane,
“Dear Anca,
A lifetime friend (Karen) that is here at the retreat, came in a little late when we were reading your posts (aloud). When we finished, she made a comment that showed she thought what was being read was written by me… She was surprised to find out that it was you! Then another woman (EvFranklin1976) said she was going to post, “Dear Jane (Anca -wink wink-)” … and everyone started laughing … In other words, they were teasing me that I had made up another user named Anca and was posting as her ….. We all had a good laugh. We are all thanking God for you!”
That’s great, LOL. It’s a BIG compliment to be compared to Jane’s writing! She has 3-D vision when she writes because she sees things dynamically. I noticed she sees the scriptures with the eyes and anointing of the Holy Spirit. I am familiar with writings from a few theologians and Messianic Jewish Rabbis who interpret scripture like Jane does, but they usually go to school for decades before they can understand the depth of the scriptures that way. So Jane, you really do have a gift.
We just finished our lunch. They wanted to know about you, so I shared some choice parts of your writing to me. They love you and marvel at your insights and wisdom for such a young age. Right now some that arrived late are going to set up their blow-up beds and then we’ll start the next session. We read your latest posts and your request for their insights on 1-44. They want to do so, but it might be post-retreat or we won’t make it thought the rest of the slides. We need more time! We are having great discussions. … Please post your thoughts about Part 2 if you have time. We all wish you were here!!!
Anca … so sorry … this message and the last one is from me, Jane, … Karen had used my iPad last and she was logged in on it … I thought I was logged in when I wrote the message to you… so sorry. We are all laughing so hard … This is still coming to you from Karen being logged in … help us Lord!!!
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